By Steve Rhodes
In which I talk back to the transcript. Edited for clarity and sanity.
ABC News Illinois Senate Debate/October 19, 2010
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: Joining me in the questions tonight, ABC 7’s Charles Thomas, political writer Carrie Lester of the Daily Herald and Andy Shaw, executive director of The Better Government Association, long-time reporter for WLS, as well. Each candidate will have an opening statement of one minute each. They had a draw. Alexi Giannoulias, you go first.
ALEXI GIANNOULIAS: Thank you. This has been a tough and at times very negative campaign. But there is a lot at stake. Because of this devastating recession people across the state have lost their jobs, have lost their homes and are struggling just to make ends meet. Tragically, the decisions in Washington, D.C. over the last decade have made things worse. Exploding budget deficits. Shipping jobs overseas. A failure to address our environmental challenges. Why in the world would we send the same people who created this mess back to Washington, D.C.?
RHODES: Therefore, I am announcing today that I will not support Barack Obama for re-election in 2010. And don’t even get me started on Dick Durbin.
GIANNOULIAS: You may not always agree with me, but you will always know where I stand.
RHODES: For example, you may not agree with it, but you will always know when I am dodging questions about Broadway Bank.
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ANDY SHAW: Congressman Kirk, this campaign has featured an abundance of attack ads, character assaults, mudslinging and a notable lack of high-level discourse on the important issues facing the next Illinois Senator.
RHODES: And that was just the primaries!
SHAW: To what extent should you be held accountable by the voters of Illinois for the negative tone of the campaign, which has been disappointing to virtually everyone?
MARK KIRK: I think this campaign certainly has been about the resume and background, but at heart, when we vote on November 2nd, it will be about economic philosophy. If you’re happy with the direction of the government right now, of trillions in debt, of increasingly accelerating the spending of the Congress, and the growing of the government into our national life, then my opponent is your candidate.
But there is a growing voice in Illinois that wants a check and balance. That does not think that we should raise taxes in Springfield, like my opponent would like, or in Washington, D.C. And we need a new small business bill of rights. Ten new policies to help out the real number one employers, small business. Half of all the jobs. Eighty percent of the job losses. We know how Congress has hurt them. We don’t know very much how the current Congress has helped them at all.
RHODES: Terrific. Now how about a citizens’ bill of rights wherein you are required to answer the question.
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GIANNOULIAS: You’re right, Andy. This has been a brutal campaign. But it’s brutal out there for a lot of families.
RHODES: I mean, did you see the ads the Johnsons were running against the Smiths?
GIANNOULIAS: To hear Congressman Kirk say that he taxes less, borrows less, and spends less is a tremendous irony, because there’s no one in this race who’s actually taxed more, spent more, and borrowed more.
RHODES: Which isn’t surprising considering he’s a five-term United States congressman and you’re a first-term state treasurer. You might say he’s the one in the race who’s spent the most for national security too.
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SHAW: Let me follow up by confronting the elephant in the room, the character issue. Congressman Kirk, what do you tell voters who wonder about a man who embellishes a resume. Mr. Treasurer, what do you say to voters who wonder about someone whose bank makes loans to unsavory characters and whose student loan program, Bright Start, virtually collapsed?
RHODES: The same thing we’ve been telling voters for the past year! Don’t you read the papers?
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KIRK: I misstated a part of my military record. It’s a painful process. I learned a big lesson from that.
RHODES: Yes. Don’t get caught.
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GIANNOULIAS: I am very proud of the community bank that my father started 30 years ago. And let’s be clear, no one has ever suggested that the bank has ever done anything illegal, illicit, or improper. Never.
RHODES: No one has ever suggested the bank ever did anything improper! Dude, now who’s the serial embellisher?
CARRIE LESTER: Looking back at how you responded to those revelations, do you feel you should have done anything differently? Do you feel that any of your statements may have ultimately discouraged voters?
RHODES: Well, I’m pretty sure that last one did!
GIANNOULIAS: I think back when I for ran for state treasurer, I probably should have done a better job, quite frankly, explaining the way that community banks decide whether or not to approve or deny a loan.
RHODES: Instead, I dodged the media in order to win the race. And then I dodged the media in the Democratic primary. And I’m dodging the media now. But if I had just explained from the beginning . . .
GIANNOULIAS: But again, we need to be clear on the facts. And I understand it’s politics. No one has ever accused my father’s business of doing anything illicit or improper.
RHODES: Except everyone.
GIANNOULIAS: And Congressman Kirk – and Karl Rove – have said a lot of things that are untrue and deeply offensive.
RHODES: Plus, my polling shows that I should mention Karl Rove’s name as often as possible tonight. That’s number three, for those keeping score at home.
GIANNOULIAS: Congressman Kirk wants to fight for big corporations and the wealthiest Americans. I want to fight for middle-class families that have been destroyed by this recession.
RHODES: By banks like mine.
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KIRK: I made a mistake and I corrected it. I took ownership. As naval officers, we’re trained to take command, to be responsible, accountable, and for that, I am. But the difference between me and my opponent is he made a number of mistakes. Betting his bank’s future on risky real estate loans. Brokered hot money deposits and loans to well-known convicted felons and mobsters like Michael “Jaws” Giorango. Even this mystery trip to Florida, in which you went to see him and his business. In which he ran a prostitution ring.
RHODES: But nobody has suggested he did anything illicit or improper.
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GIANNOULIAS: Typical Washington, D.C. change-the-subject sleight-of-hand. Congressman says he’s been accountable. Look, I’ve seen the congressman’s fitness reports. And they’re impressive.
RHODES: He’s very fit!
GIANNOULIAS: But nowhere in those fitness reports does it answer any of the questions that have plagued him throughout this campaign. He keeps on pointing to these fitness reports to provide answers to these questions. But I’ve looked at the fitness reports. Nowhere in there does it say that he served in Iraq. Nowhere in there does it say he was shot at by Dutch peacekeepers. Nowhere does it say that he was shot at at all.
LESTER: The question was about how you handled your own situation. And if you felt you should have done differently.
GIANNOULIAS: Congressman, simple question: Were you shot at or not?
RHODES: Because God knows I was, making loans to guys named Jaws!
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KIRK: But the ultimate irony is that he is a man who spends most of his campaign for the Senate criticizing my military record and yet he never served a day in uniform himself.
RHODES: No, I think the ultimate irony is that Alexi was in more danger serving in his dad’s bank than you were in the military.
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GIANNOULIAS: Were you shot at or not?
KIRK: I have put my life on the line for the United States, as many of my fellow veterans have done. But your entire campaign is about a military record in which I served. I put it on the line. You were back in the rear – with the gear. And I understand, you made that decision. And when we look at all of these bank loans to felons and mobsters, the people that were your business associates, and then on national TV you admitted “I didn’t know the extent of the criminal activity of the people that I lent money to.” From a federal licensed institution that then collapsed. And then you transferred a $390 million bill onto the back of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. I think you should have some apologizing to do, too.
GIANNOULIAS: Again, no answer to the question.
CHARLES THOMAS: To Congressman Kirk. You have made fiscal responsibility a centerpiece of your campaign, citing your opposition to the Obama Administration’s economic stimulus because of its cost. What different course or courses of action would you have supported in 2009 to stimulate the economy and get unemployed Americans back to work?
RHODES: Um, we were kind of on a line of questioning here, Charles. If you’re gonna sleep through the first part of the debate, don’t ask questions until you catch up.
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KIRK: I think if we had a much smaller bill with a much larger amount of money for infrastructure, it could have gained bipartisan support. But a surprising amount of the stimulus spent money on social programs that had been rejected by the Congress for many years. And the failure of the stimulus, remember we were promised that unemployment would top out at eight percent by the Administration.
In Illinois, it’s 10 percent. And we have seen a raft of wasteful spending stories about what the stimulus tried to spend money on. And a real failure of its record. I think we could have built a bipartisan record on that bill, but instead, the lasting legacy of the stimulus will be a near trillion-dollar debt leveled on the financial future of our kids. And much of that money borrowed from creditors who gave it to Uncle Sam expecting to be repaid with interest by our kids.
GIANNOULIAS: Again, facts and records matter.
RHODES: So, that trip to Florida . . .
GIANNOULIAS: Congressman Kirk voted for every single one of the Bush budgets that took us from record budget surpluses to record budget deficits.
RHODES: While I was in Florida.
KIRK: One of the tragedies of the stimulus was that it limited projects to shovel-ready projects.
RHODES: And then it turned out we couldn’t afford shovels!
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THOMAS: Will you go to Washington to simply be a rubber stamp for the Obama Administration?
RHODES: Um, do you want me to? I can’t tell by the tone of your question.
GIANNOULIAS: No, of course not. I’m gonna vote my conscience.
RHODES: Paid for by the National Conscience Association, a subsidiary of America’s sugar growers and the SEIU.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: You know, of all the Senate candidates in the country, you’re probably closer to the president than any of the other candidates. You’re one of the few candidates who’s actually advertising his relationship with the president. But no matter what happens on Election Day, there are gonna be fewer Democrats in the Senate. There are gonna be fewer Democrats in the House. So, as a friend of the president, what mid-course corrections would you advise him to take? Give me two specifics.
GIANNOULIAS: I will give you two specifics. But I also think it’s important to point out that, again, we were dealing with some enormous challenges when the president took office. That being said, there was an omnibus spending bill which had thousands of earmarks – a ton of pork. This is somewhere where I think the congressman and I agree. I would have voted against it. I think that President Obama should have vetoed it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I’m talking about going forward, though.
GIANNOULIAS: Going forward, I think we need to do everything we can to create a sense of urgency when it comes towards a clean energy future. I think it’s a priority not just from a moral perspective, but from a national security, from a global competitiveness, and from a job creation standpoint. And we need to do everything we can to incentivize the private sector again to start hiring.
RHODES: Those are your two specifics? No wonder you made a cruddy loan officer.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: Similar question for you, Congressman Kirk. Sarah Palin yesterday said that the Republican Party is quote “through” if they don’t follow the dictates of the Tea Party. What does the Tea Party get right and what do they get wrong?
RHODES: In what universe is that a similar question?
KIRK: Well, certainly we should spend less, borrow less, and tax less to help this economy out.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I’m not sure I got a direct answer to my question from either one of you.
RHODES: Why should that question be any different than the others?
STEPHANOPOULOS: So, I’m gonna try one more time. First to you, Mr. Giannoulias, again, on the President’s basic approach, what kind of mid-course correction does he have to make?
GIANNOULIAS: Sure. As I mentioned, learning from mistakes in the past, I think there is a focus on health care reform, which is something that I’m supportive of.
RHODES: He mentioned that?
GIANNOULIAS: That being said, I think we should have had a laser-like focus on creating jobs.
So, we need to do everything we can, again, to create private sector jobs and to stimulate the private sector.
RHODES: Including stimulating the question-answering industry, because it’s obviously not doing much business at the moment.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: What did the Tea Party get wrong?
KIRK: Fiscal conservative is good. But if you ask what is my independence from the Republican Party, I’ve been very independent.
RHODES: Um, I think he asked about your independence from the Tea Party. Can I see those fitness reports again?
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SHAW: Gentlemen, Illinois is a fiscal basket case. Virtually bankrupt. A $13 billion budget deficit. Six billion in unpaid bills. An $80 billion unfunded pension liability.
RHODES: That’s why neither of us is running for governor!
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SHAW: If you go to D.C., facing these multitrillion shortfalls, where do you look to cut? What one or two places do you look first, and what is sacrosanct, what wouldn’t you touch?
KIRK: Across the board spending reductions, and no department is exempt. I’ve talked about the cuts that I would make, for example, in the DOD budget.
GIANNOULIAS: Four things. The first is we need to immediately do everything we can to promote economic growth. When people aren’t working they’re not paying taxes, that’s less revenue long term. Again, when people aren’t working, when they don’t have jobs.
SHAW: But that’s not a budget cut.
GIANNOULIAS: But it’s important. It’s an important investment to make.
RHODES: So your first budget cut is to spend more. No wonder you made a lousy loan officer.
GIANNOULIAS: The second thing we need to do . . .
RHODES: Is spend more?
GIANNOULIAS: . . . is enact pay-go legislation, something that the congressman voted against, to end these deficit-busting budgets that have been all too familiar in Washington D.C.
The third thing we need to is let the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans expire. We don’t have $700 billion to give to millionaires and billionaires. And the fourth thing is, when the deficit commission comes out with their report in December, we’re going to need a bipartisan spirit.
RHODES: Finally, more loans to mobsters. They’re good for it.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: Corruption is, of course, the big story in Illinois, but it also exists at the federal level. So let me ask each of you what single ethical or transparency-related law or statute or provision would you fight for when you get to D.C. in the hopes of giving people a better government.
RHODES: How about more transparency about military service and bank lending?
KIRK: I broke with my party early and backed the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform legislation. Now we need to go further and have all candidates disclose contributions within 24 hours on the Internet.
GIANNOULIAS: This is probably the starkest choice in this race. If you turn the TV on after or before this, you’re going to see that Karl Rove . . .
RHODES: That’s four.
GIANNOULIAS: . . .and the independent expenditures that are fueling Congressman Kirk’s commercials every single day are having a dangerous impact on the future of our democracy. Which is why I am very proud to be the first candidate in the history of Illinois to run for the U.S. Senate not to take money from federal lobbyists and corporate PACs.
RHODES: Which I can do because I’m rich.
GIANNOULIAS: We can’t afford to let Karl Rove come into town and steal these elections.
RHODES: Five.
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LESTER: Where do you stand on gay marriages and civil unions?
GIANNOULIAS: I am in favor of full marriage equality.
RHODES: So you think the president is wrong to oppose gay marriage? And is “marriage equality” your way of avoiding the phrase “gay marriage”?
KIRK: I oppose gay marriage, and I support civil unions.
RHODES: So the same position as the president.
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KIRK: He says he doesn’t take money from corporate PACs, but he does take money from union PACs.
GIANNOULIAS: I have to give the congressman credit. He is a great politician. Karl Rove . . .
RHODES: Six.
GIANNOULIAS: . . . is coming here, and American Crossroads, with exorbitant sums of money . . . We’re seeing what’s happening on our airwaves with Karl Rove.
RHODES: Seven.
GIANNOULIAS: You know, Mark Kirk helped Karl Rove . . .
RHODES: Eight.
GIANNOULIAS: . . . destroy the economy, and now Karl Rove . . .
RHODES: Nine.
GIANNOULIAS: . . . is repaying the favor with millions of dollars.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: Would you have voted for Justice Thomas?
KIRK: I think Justice Thomas was confirmed.
RHODES: That’s what Wikipedia says. Can I see those fitness reports again?
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STEPHANOPOULOS: Treasurer Giannoulias, is there any member of the Supreme Court who’s been appointed by a Republican president on the court right now that you would’ve supported? But first, the question about Anita Hill.
GIANNOULIAS: You know, again, I’ll finally agree with Congressman Kirk.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I’ll ask the question again. Is there any Supreme Court justice appointed by a Republican on the court today that you would’ve supported?
GIANNOULIAS: I can’t think of any offhand.
RHODES: But if you name some, you might jog my memory!
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Analysis: If you’re not offended by these candidates, you deserve ’em. Show some self-respect and vote Jones or Labno.
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Comments welcome.
Posted on October 31, 2010